Industry Interview: Different Sauce

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Hey You,

Welcome to an interview we are very excited to present. It's about a topic that is hot right now, and we’ve been vocal about it in previous articles: fake streaming and Payola. But what does that look like from an industry insider perspective?

We spoke to Aidan Grant, founder of Different Sauce, about fake streaming, its impact on artists, and what music streamers can do to support their favorite music-makers.

Excited? Us? You betcha’. Enjoy!

Before we get stuck into this massive topic, can you introduce yourself? Tell us about what you do and some of the events and bands you work with.

Hi guys, thanks for having the chat :) I’m Aidan, founder of Different Sauce. We like to think of ourselves as a modern solution to the PR problem, which has existed and festered for decades.. We pride ourselves on our accountability and our forward thinking approach, working with new and modern, engaging media (Podcasts/ Playlists/ Youtube channels/ Influencers) - all with a no-win, no fee model - so, you only pay based on what we achieve. Simple.

Our Services include:

• Podcasts + New Media Pitching - long-form content opportunities, interviews and guest appearances.

• Playlist Marketing - Influential playlist curators across Spotify's network (We have a zero streaming fraud guarantee or your money back)

• Content Tastemakers - Music content creators across TikTok & Meta with an audience in their particular genre + niche

• Music Press - Tastemaker global media (PR)

You can find some of our artists/ labels on our website - and have a look through some case studies here.

One of our team members found you on TikTok speaking very passionately about fake and fraudulent streaming, especially how it hurts indie artists, including those who buy into it.  How often do you see this happening?

The problem here is ultimately about bad actors capitalizing on artists' desire for success, or at least, perceived success. It goes deeper than just buying streams from bot farms or wherever else you get them.. 

We see this happening a lot because, of course, we’re a little wiser to it than most and can see red flags and spot playlists that we know do this. Typically, it happens through agencies or promotion teams - so if you end up working with a team that can “guarantee” your success, it’s usually because of this.

Always insist on some level of bot-checking if you’re working with a third-party team, there’s lots of tools out there for this - or talk to your distributor.

Would you say the pressure on indie musicians to buy fake streams has increased in the last few years?

I think it’s been around for a while now - and actually, with Spotify losing its status as the sole platform for breaking new artists (that sits with TikTok now) - I’m hoping there will be less of this in the near/immediate future. 

But yes, it’s absolutely still there. The root of the problem (In my opinion) comes from the fact that streams are publicly available, which leads industry/ fans/ tastemakers to make a decision on an artist's relevance, based purely on their “Monthly listeners” or streams, etc. 

Radio producers, check how many streams you have… Booking agents, check how many streams you have. When I sign artists to my label (I’m being honest, I’m part of the problem) I check the artists Spotify. 

This means that artists feel the need to enhance these numbers, at all costs. They see it as a short-term negative, for a long-term positive. You can understand why.. If you spend £300 on a dodgy playlist campaign, but it leads to a meeting with a booking agent, who books you a tour… You’d probably see that as a win. 

From your experience, what happens to artists who take that route? What are the long-term consequences, and how could it affect their future opportunities?

It’s a sliding scale of shit-ness, basically. 

In the best-case scenario, it affects your algorithm for that particular track, lowering your chances of getting playlists such as release radar, radio, Discover Weekly, and streaming platforms serving your track to genuine fans, which is what you’re there for. 

Worst case scenario, you can have your artist page banned. Distributors can also now, personally hold you liable for lost streams/ revenue so… In the absolute worst situation, you can actually be sued! Technically… 

More often than not, it’s somewhere in the middle. You get a slap on the wrist from Spotify and your distributor, algorithmically, you won’t be in a good place, which affects your chances with editors and algorithmic support moving forward.

We’ve covered topics like Payola, fraudulent streaming accusations (Sabrina Carpenter, The Weeknd), and even DSPs supporting fake artists in previous articles. Should the industry be taking a top-down approach to tackling this? Aside from AI fraud/fake stream tracking bots, what action should be taken?

The truth is it’s not at the top of DSP’s priorities. They've got far more self-interested things to be worrying about, we’ve seen this time and time again. 

Ultimately, the bigger artists, listed above - who have been caught doing this, won’t ever be banned from the platform. The major labels have a financial slice of Spotify, so why would they allow their artists to be banned? Won’t happen. However, independent artists might be. 

I will say that recently there has been at least SOME gesture from Spotify on this with their playlist reporting tool. However, this is a reactive process rather than pro-active... I’d rather see Spotify name and shame playlists in some way. 

For example “Your account has seen fraudulent activity - we have flagged the below playlists as significant risk, would you like to report these playlists?”

Another issue comes with this, though... Spotify struggles to distinguish between accounts on Spotify that are “Free accounts” and those that are bots. So it seems like it might be a problem beyond their control.

In your TikTok, you suggested removing publicly visible play counts. How would that change things for artists and the industry, and do you think this is something we will ever see?

It's highly unlikely that we will ever see this. It serves too many people for these numbers to be public now, and also, it’s a part of our cultural zeitgeist to see “Numbers.”

I think it would reduce the goldrush mentality of “Numbers over everything” and Numbers = great. I would HOPE we would go back to a world of execs, radio producers, booking agencies, managers etc. Taking a bit more of a chance on projects without needing to see numbers to back their assessment

These numbers would still be available for artists on the back end of their analytics. Similar to how a distributor dashboard works - or Apple Music for artists. But they wouldn’t be publicly visible.

I’m just shouting at clouds here, though, so it won’t happen.

At the end of last year, Spotify announced it would allow AI-generated music on the platform—unlike DSPs like Deezer, which are increasing transparency with AI-gen music. What are your thoughts on AI in music creation, and the huge impact it has on fake streaming and revenue siphoning? 

I’m obviously not a massive fan of this, I don’t really see how anyone in the music industry really can be. 

I’m not too sure how Spotify can really stop it though.. Submitting music to their platform, where and how are they supposed to flag music (that’s indistinguishable from real music) as AI? Should this happen at the distribution stage, or should DSP’s have their own tools to do it? 

Ultimately - if the tech is there, people are going to exploit it. Again, it comes down to regulation, there has to be barriers put on these AI tech companies that says, if you are going to create a rap song that sounds just like Drake or is trained on Drake’s voice/ music, then Drake has to receive some kind of royalties from that song. 

I don’t know everything about this field, I’d highly recommend reading the work of Stuart Dredge on this - he covers this a lot for various publications.

(Note: We absolutely recommend checking out Stuart Dredge’s coverage of gen-AI and DSPs, too)

Different Sauce is on the frontline of helping artists gain visibility despite these pressures. What do you think the future holds for new and emerging artists? How can they navigate these challenges (beyond working with you)?

Stay informed as much as you possibly can. Having some knowledge of how the industry is shifting around you, can really help inform your decisions. Tools like Music Ally are really good for this (as well as this publication of course!).

Try, as best you can.. not to rely on the typical promotion avenues that exist. I love to see artists doing something with fan clubs, mailing lists… harnessing a small pool of super fans. There’s a DJ duo called Le Boom, who do this in an incredible way with their secret parties. 

It’s daunting to get started, but in the long run, it’s the best thing you can do. 

We advocate for active listening and engagement to combat passive streaming and discourage ‘sameness’ in personalized playlists. Beyond that, how else can listeners support new and emerging artists—both on DSPs and beyond? 

The most important metric social media platforms use to measure success of content these days is shares. Likes mean close to nothing, so a “share to story” or even better, a share to WhatsApp groups, is the single best thing you can do to support without it costing a penny. 

Other than that there’s of course revenue support - buying music/merch, gig tickets, subscribing to mailing lists. 

On DSPs - Presaves are super useful and HARD to achieve. Also, follow artists. 

Before we let you go, we have to ask two big questions. One—where do you look for new music? And two—do you have any playlists to share with our readers?

Oooo good question... I love electronic music so typically I find artists through mixes on YouTube on boiler room, or similar things like that (which is why it’s SO important for tracklists to be added to these).

As a playlist, probably our artist list is a good place to start.🙂

Interested in more like this? Head to TikTok and check out Different Sauce… but only if you’re into straightforward advice and great insight ;).

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